Wednesday, November 03, 2004

My response

From Bush's speech today:

Reaching these goals will require the broad support of Americans, so today I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support and I will work to earn it. I will do all I can do to deserve your trust.

A new term is a new opportunity to reach out to the whole nation. We have one country, one Constitution, and one future that binds us. And when we come together and work together, there is no limit to the greatness of America. (Cheers, applause.)

MY RESPONSE:

The marriage amendment cast in hatred of those different from you, calling those who dissent from your misguided and foolish policies traitors, implying that criticizing you weakens our nation, and the slimy campaign you ran don't bring us together.

Mr. President, fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You are still a fool. Being popular doesn't make you right. It makes you popular. You are the worst president our nation has ever suffered under. And history will remember you that way.

Vote Hillary in '08!

70 comments:

artbyruth said...

Nice. Very mature. That sort of response is exactly why you Liberals haven't won anything in so long.

Here is a much better response from Andrew Sullivan........

:But the most fundamental fact of this campaign - and one of the reasons it has been so bitter - is that we are at war. Our opponents at home are not our enemies. The real enemy is the Jihadist terror network that, even now, is murdering innocents and coalition soldiers in Iraq. Our job now - all of us - is to support this president in that war, to back those troops, and to pray for victory. We saw yesterday, in the cold-blooded murder of a Dutch film-maker for his open criticism of Islamist misogyny, that the enemy is still at large; and aiming directly at our freedoms and security. In Fallujah, our troops are poised for a vital battle against terrorists and theocrats intent on derailing a free future for Iraq. Democracy is on the line there and throughout the world. I've been more than a little frustrated by the president's handling of this war in the past year; but we have to draw a line under that now. The past is the past. And George W. Bush is our president. He deserves a fresh start, a chance to prove himself again, and the constructive criticism of those of us who decided to back his opponent. He needs our prayers and our support for the enormous tasks still ahead of him. He has mine. Unequivocally."

leftyjones said...

Oh dear god....I'm SO tired of hearing what Georgie deserves.
The only thing worse than the last 4 years will be the next 4 years once the intelligent but evil staff he has assembled start handing in their resignations for billion dollar private sector jobs and they start being replaced by equally evil and stupid zealouts.

Georgie deserves nothing more than the stain on the history books he'll become.
Then again, I take that back.......

He also deserves to be kept awake at night by the cries of those who have lost loved ones in his fantasy war on Iraq.

vrangel said...

Heh, I blame this guy :

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060763957.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Bigandmean said...

TWD,
I'm really disappointed in your response. Although I often disagree with you, I've continued to read your posts for the last several weeks because you're very good at this and I respect you. I respect your passion for politics, your intelligence and your dogged determination. You're obviously a proud father and faimly man and you served your country with honor. I like all that.

But this was beneath you.

I've been on the losing side before and know what a crushing feeling it is to be convinced that you are right and want something so much , be so close and then lose. It's frustrating beyond anything you could have imagined. It's like getting kicked in the gut.

Both sides did some things they shouldn't be proud of and that makes it harder to recover from the disappointment of losing....i.e. knowing that the oppostion didn't always play fair.

But it's time to circle the wagons and get back to working together for the common good. I want what's best for my country but don't believe we'll get where we should be if we're at each other's throats.

Let's be loyal opponents and not angry enemies. What do you say?

Jamie said...

An outsiders POV.

I can understand TWD’s frustration and those like him.

Bush relied on unaccountable voting machines, a campaign of terrible lies, a campaign of getting out the base of people who don't like homo's invading your church, Saddam being a part of 911, and embryos. People likeTWD live in a reality based community. It stings like hell so many people turned out from their caves to vote on such pretentious reasons who aren't even affected by the REAL ISSUES geographically or culturally where the highest contingent of realists live... understandably pissed, I think so...

His group IMO is from a fact based community. Karl Rove simply looked (obsessing really) at what really fires up Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania and forged policies to suit by ramming this radicalism down their collective throats with the help of the voter vault of names collection profiles, social profiles et al at the anti-gun law rubes, the anti-abortion rubes, the low-tax rubes, the family-values rubes, the pro-war rubes, values before pocket book group. They passed out flyers accusing Kerry of wanting to ban the bible. And oh my god the lies. Never has a candidate so blatantly lied to the rubes and the scribes parroted them. That “Global test” ad nauseam, lie(!) was not even the worst, but it definitely hurt Kerry and it was a pure lie, don’t make me get the transcripts out!

And that bigoted amendment in order to drive them out was disgraceful. The only revelation in Bushs life was the evangelical vote, not god.

Now being Canadian I have my own reasons for feeling pretty bad. Not because I am a sore loser who doesn’t agree with anything Bush stands for politically on the world stage, but I lost hope for a reconciliation with America.

Bush doesn't want to cooperate. He doesn't care. It would be easier for me to scoff and laugh and tell you how you have lost Iraq STILL and go ahead and elect Bush so he can clean up his mess...with whatever "plan" he has...

Canada has paid hundreds of millions of dollars for assistance in Iraqi aid, and he won't even take our Prime Ministers call for settling the soft lumber dispute or beef industry, which are not even on life support anymore but buried 6 feet under because you have a child running the show....and now he wants our flu vaccine....yeah right, tied to a cow on a lumber truck you'll get one!

Tell me how that heals wounds? tell me that’s how an adult governs....

but, as long as you don't allow gays to marry...

what about the Beatitudes, Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount?

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. …

Not exactly planks in a Republican platform but look like true values for real people

You voted in elmer fudd, pinky instead of the brain, a campaign of outrageous lies, wedge issues, fear and religious pandering...regardless of the dems tactics, they at least provided a new beginning without carrying a homophobic bible with blank pages...

ALa said...

I'm a bit pissed...I didn't gloat, even when I KNOW that all of you would have...I wouldn't have acted this way either (surf the 'left blogs' it's downright scary) --my post from yesterday was written BEFORE I knew who won...I was prepared to move forward no matter what the outcome and I expected the same from all of you. We felt as strongly as you did -and worked just as hard.
THIS is my response to the whining. I understand being upset, but come on...this is just sad.

ALa said...
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ALa said...
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mrbandw said...

TWD,

All I can say is, wow. I came here expecting to see a rational response to the election results. Too bad you seem to have temporarily lost your mind. I have always had a lot of respect for your writing and opinions (and I still do). Sorry to see the election result has had such a negative effect on you.

By the way, if you really want to see a Democrat win the next election, I hope you are not really going to hitch your wagon to Hillary. She's got even less chance of winning than a liberal Democrat from MA.

Hope you are feeling better soon.

Thank you

fbg46 said...

Okay TWD, now that you've gotten that out of your system, back to work.

This was the Election of the Third Best Outcome. The First would have been President Kerry and a Democratic Senate; the Second would have been President Bush and a Democratic Senate, and the Third is Bush and a Republican Senate.

If Kerry had been President facing a 55-45 Republican Senate and trying to clean up the mess that Bush has created -- well, it would have been ugly and an almost - lock for a Repub President in '08.

Now Dear Leader has to clean up his own messes, and he will be as miserable a failure at doing this as he has been at everything else in his life.

Re: the Election -- Credit Where Credit Is Due, Part One: Karl did what he said he was going to do; he got the evnagelicals out to vote against gay marriage initiatives in the right swing states and, oh yeah, to vote for Dear Leader. But Karl is all about the campaigning, not about the governing. And now the evangleicals have several places at the table, and "compromise" is not a word they like too much (What's their favorite saying? Something about "You cannot compromise with Satan"?) It's going to be interesting to see just how well Dear Leader rides this tiger.

Credit Where Credit Is Due, Part Two: A tip of the hat to OBL -- But for 9/11, Dubya is a failed one - term President who would be drawing up his list of which of the (as of right now) unindicted felons and war criminals he would be pardoning on his way out the door at about 11:30 on January 20th.

The election result can't obscure the fact that the demograpics in the country are trending Democratic; that will be making itself felt in the '08 and beyond elections.

Also, the Repubs have been trashing the Dem GOTV efforts, particularly among the young. Both anecdotally and statistically, they are wrong.

Anecdote: I was an Election Observer in two polling places in East Las Vegas on Tuesday. What I saw was a lot of young voters (many of whom were voting for the first time) making it clear they were there to vote for President. They looked like Dems to me. (Clark County voted Blue, Nevada wound up red)

Statistics: The 18 -29 cohort voted 54 -45 for Kerry. In 2000, 43% of the eligible voters in this cohort actually voted; this year it was 52% in general and 64% in the ten swing states.

We've got to do a couple of things, among them do a better job of explaining to people in the Red States that what we believe in is what they believe in as well; to do that we need to talk in their terms.

And the right person to do that probably isn't Hillary. It's probably going to be a Southerner who connects with the Red Staters on the same gut level that President Bill did -- President Edwards, anyone?

vrangel said...

Cmon guys, let TWD blow off some steam. We're all humans...

Had Bush lost I would've posted stuff like %@#% Kerry myself.
I would be banned from this blog by now, hehe ;)

Jamie said...

And the right person to do that probably isn't Hillary. It's probably going to be a Southerner who connects with the Red Staters on the same gut level that President Bill did --

ugh. What does it say to you that in order to connect with these people bush had to run a campaign of fear that never concerned them, and of faith based values that has absolutely nothing to do with governing but all to do with prejudice? What exactly separates the Christian-right from the Taliban? Just the book they read, from what I can tell. It’s interesting how you are becoming the very thing your president says you're fighting against...

i dare you to prove that family "values" are anything other than homophobia

mandatory aids lists...are you kidding me?

Reps, is this true and are you proud of this?

Tom Coburn, the new senator from Oklahoma, has advocated the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions and warned that "the gay agenda" would undermine the country. He also characterized his race as a choice between "good and evil" and said he had heard there was "rampant lesbianism" in Oklahoma schools.

Jim DeMint, the new senator from South Carolina, said during his campaign that he supported a state G.O.P. platform plank banning gays from teaching in public schools. He explained, "I would have given the same answer when asked if a single woman who was pregnant and living with her boyfriend should be hired to teach my third-grade children."

John Thune, who toppled Tom Daschle, is an anti-abortion Christian conservative - or "servant leader," as he was hailed in a campaign ad - who supports constitutional amendments banning flag burning and gay marriage.


I'm ashamed to be your neighbor

vrangel said...

Jamie, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Fast forward to the year 2021:

"... a United Nations battle group, clustered around the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Hillary Clinton (named after "the most uncompromising wartime president in the history of the United States"), is tasked with stopping ethnic cleansing by an Islamist regime in Indonesia..."

Read all about it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345457129/qid=1099632272/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0968946-4522309?v=glance&s=books

Go Hillary ! :^)

Jamie said...

"the most uncompromising wartime president in the history of the United States"

?? why wait ?? you have one in office now.

maybe you should watch this and apologize to the troops for your vote.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/

redleg said...

TWD

Wow. bitter much? Way to lose gracefully.

I used to think you were an articulate intellegent ex soldier. You are trashing that opinion time now.

Step back and reevaluate why the left lost this election and consider that the opposing viewpoint might 1) just possibly (I know, it's inconcievable) be right or 2) just have a different way to make America safer. Your profanity at the President is childish and beneath you.

I'm sorry your side lost. I am sorrier that the left is wallowing in their sorrow like your last two posts unfortunately did. The rest of us are living in real world.

I hope this wears off of you soon and we can hear an articulate opposite viewpoint intelligently argued again. But if this keeps up the NYT should have a column open soon, or CBS. Keep your fingers crossed.

HowardFromPhilly said...

Bravo! Good for you! It's so awesome to see brilliant, articualte folks like you telling it like it is. The fact that extreme right wing fascist hatemongers are offended by your righteous display of outrage makes your remarks all that much sweeter. We really need you and folks like you to run for public office... and to get on the radio and make your voice heard across this great land of ours. You're great.

To your radical right wing detractors: please spare us your fake outrage. You people disgust me. Don't you DARE Pontificate to us freedom loving American liberals. You DARE to shake a finger in our faces and talk about "moral values"? BIGOTRY is not a moral value, my right wing hate monger friends out there. All your high-minded rationalizing about "sanctity of marriage" is just the coward's way of masking your homophobia. Jumping all over John Kerry for pointing out (in a positive way) that Dick Cheney's daughter is a lesbian and to turn a blind eye when Neo-con rabble rouser Alan Keyes says that Homosexuals are selfish hedonists, and, of course, the VP's daughter is one too just exposes what sanctimonious, shallow, hateful little people you are. THAT is what I call being "ASSholier-than-thou".

IGNORANCE is not a "moral" value. Lying our sons and daughters and brothers and sisters in uniform into their graves by deliberately misleading the American people is NOT a "family value". LOOK... I don't care WHAT they told you on Fox News, Saddam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9/11. We were NOT under an imminent threat of a WND attack. None of you Neo-con fascists have YET been able to answer me satisfactorily that is Saddam actually HAD weapons of mass destruction, why he did not use him when he was literally fighting for his life against the forces of occupation... er... oh, excuse me, I meant "liberation". (Where are all those flowers are soldiers were going to be greeted with by those "grateful Iraqis", anyway? In those car bombs they keep throwing at us??? ) You right-wing zealots remind me of the Raggedy Ann that sat on Pinocchio's face and said,"LIE to me, baby!!! LIE to me!!!!!" No lie you hear on the TV or from a drugged up fat man on the radio is too outrageous to swallow as long at it supports your narrow, hateful little view of the world. SHAME on you. The blood of our kids in uniform (not to mention all the innocent Iraqis who had NOTHING to do with 9/11.... or even Saddam, except to be his victim)... are on YOUR hands. Dying for a righteous cause, a necessary war, is heroic. This was NOT a NECESSARY war. This is a slaughter. But Halliburton sure is sucking up the blood money real good, aren't they??? I don't know how you butchers sleep at night.

Greed and deceit are NOT "family values". Giving Granny a choice between food and her medicines because you made it ILLEGAL to negotiate the price of drugs down with the BIG drug companies is NOT family friendly. And bragging that you got the seniors a "prescription plan at long last" is like a rapist bragging what a great lover he is. Disgusting.

Creating a program for junior call "No Child Left Behind" and then failing to fund it properly is NOT a family value. And lying how the American education system is failing because of "Godless liberals" is MORE lying propaganda from the fascist right. YOU GUYS don't want the public to get educated. You WANT them ignorant. YOU DEPEND UPON IT, IN FACT.

Giving tax cuts to corporate robber-barrons for exporting Daddy's and Mommy's jobs overseas to someone in India or Singapore or Costa Rica who'll do their job not nearly as well... but for a fraction of the price is NOT a family value. A wise man from the heartland... the great Midwest, Independence Missouri, in fact; named Harry Truman once said, "How many times do you have to get hit over the head before you figure out who's hitting you?" And it's just as true today as the day he said it. You right-wing fanatics STILL don't get it.

You clain you love America... yet you clearly can't stand Americans. Remember this... each and every last one of our founding fathers was not only a LIBERAL... but a RADICAL. If sheeple like you had prevailed in the days of the American Revolution... we'd be subjects of the British crown... and CERTAINLY not citizens of the most powerful country in the World.

You claim to be good Christians, yet clearly you know nothing of Jesus, who spent his life helping the downtrodden... a man who said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:25). If Jesus came back today, you so-called "good Christian" right-wingers would denounce him as a "Communist" and a "heathen". Who knows? Maybe you'd use the Patriot Act to lock him up in Guantanamo Bay indefinitely without due process. After all, he IS an alien from the Middle East with ideas completely foreign to your own... and distatsteful ones (to guys like YOU, anyway) at that.

Now, I know you guys are going to kill me in future posts. Just remember this quote of Jesus taken from the Gospel of John (I forget exactly where) before you begin to bludgeon me, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

Again, TWD, thank you for your articulate, well-considered remarks. You make me proud to be an American... and proud to be a LIBERAL. God Bless you, sir. Keep up the good work.

ALa said...

See everyone (look above) THIS is who I share my city with...this physco-babble freak who knows nothing about anything. Mr. Howard from Philly... (hopefully no where near me and my kids)...#1 TWD has worked for the past 5 months screaming that he is NOT a liberal –and that that kooky side of your party doesn't represent the party...he is ex-military & pro-gun...still like him?
#2 Bush won because of the 'Frank Rizzo' factor...not the gay marriage amendments or anything else --if you are really from Philly you'll know just what I mean by that.
For those of you not familiar with the infamous Philly mayor...he was un-popular, known for commanding police forces that were encouraged to use police brutality-and did (never stupid enough to do it on the street in front of cameras though)...crime was at an all time low -people felt safe on the streets. No one ever wanted to admit that they liked him...it wasn't PC. He would poll at the lowest numbers and then sweep elections. They might have wanted to turn a blind eye to his methods -or not admit to their friends that they thought he was great...but they all knew he got the job done! (and I sat in the Mayor's box with him when I was 6 or 7 and watched Barnum & Bailey's circus eating ice cream and cotton candy...feeling quite safe).

Bigandmean said...

I thought I might check out TWD's blog for a post-mortem of the election from a liberal's point of view. Being exposed only to the views of like minded persons is one reason we are so polarized about politics.

I didn't come here to gloat or rub your nose in defeat. I'm truly interested in starting a dialog where intelligent, mature adults can exchange ideas without resorting to name calling and insults.

Howard, I don't know if you're typical of the reaction of the left, but if you are, then there will be no rapproachment any time soon. I understand the frustration of losing and I feel for you. I've been there and experienced the same feeling. But your hate-filled diatribe is shameful. You lump all who disagree with you together, painting us all with one broad brush even though you obviously don't know us.

Maybe it's just too early to attempt to have an emotionally mature and thoughtful exchange of ideas regarding the election results. I hope the hate in your heart will change to a sense of wonderment that good and decent people can be so far apart in their beliefs.

vrangel said...

Howard,
true liberals went to fight and die for liberty in Spanish Civil War.
Fake "liberals" like you signed up to serve as human shields to protect a dictator from his day in court.

You hijacked a good word, but what you stand for has nothing to do with classic liberalism. Classic liberals still exist of course, they are called neocons these days.

What you really are is a classic communist.

vrangel said...

As illustrated here:

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_november_3_2004/

HowardFromPhilly said...

Well, I knew I was going to get hammered by the right wing ideologues in here who think everyone who disagrees with them are agents of Satan. I just didn't know how fast the classic right-wing attack of being called a "Communist" would come. Let me apologize in advance for the length of this post but I will address all of my attackers one at a time.

Vrangel, maybe I'm new coming into this discussion, but thank you for proving my point about neo-cons. If Jesus had come back today.... it'd be some hate monger like you who'd come screaming to crucify this " classic Communist". Goebbels would be proud. Tell a lie long and loud enough and people will believe it. I don't know you at all, but I'm guessing you go through life calling everyone who disagrees with you a "Commie bastard". If I'm wrong, I apologize. But if that's what you think I am, you don't know a THING about me.

I am a LIBERAL, and proud to be one. Liberals are PROGRESSIVE. They adapt to the times. Don't lecture me about hijacking good words. We don't live in the 18th Century anymore. Get over it. Stuff your talk about "classic Liberals" and move up to the 21st century. OK? Let's talk about real Conservatives, shall we?

REAL Conservatives don't run up deficits like sex maniacs in a bordello with a credit card. REAL Conservatives want the government off the average guy's back. And that means out of his bedroom, and doctor's office as well. REAL Conservatives don't want the Government subsidizing the outsourcing of American jobs. REAL Conservatives aren't looking for ways to liberalize (look at the WORD you're making me use!!!) our immigration policy at the EXACT time we should be looking for ways to TIGHTEN our controls over the borders. Don't lecture ME about what "true" liberals are, pal. Maybe you should look up the word "Conservative." And this time... LOOK PAST THE "CON".

Let me tell you what American Liberals are in favor of, since you evidently don't know (or seem to care). First of all, we are open to progress and change. We want tolerance for those who disagree with us. Look, I may think you're a fool for believing something different than I do, I might even SAY it, but I won't accuse you of TREASON for speaking your mind or try to silence you. We don't want book burnings, or censorship in the media, including the internet.

You call me a Communist. It's simply not so. Communists want the Government to control industry, run the media, and "manage our lives". There is no room for God, no room for freedom or individual liberties (and personal responsibility) in a Communist state. You think that's what I want??? HELL, no. You think I want them to run Nuclear plants and Trauma centers the way they run Government, from Congress down to your local City Hall? Screw that. THESE guys can't pave roads or direct TRAFFIC. No, no, no. I want American industry in the hands of private owners, not government pencil-pushers. I just want the little guy to get a place at the table with checks and balances like antitrust regulation, patent and copyright protection, etc. and things like Labor Unions. The Free Market, we believe, works best when there is fair and open competition, rather than having the Bill Gates's of the world own EVERYTHING.

We believe in the social safety net. It's not right for someone to lose everything they own because they get critically ill, or have a run of bad luck in the job market. But that doesn't mean we favor the Government supporting people for their whole lives. WE DON'T. We believe in giving a hand UP, NOT a handout. We BELIEVE in personal responsibility and the strength of the American work ethic. Never mind what Sean Hannity tells you.

As far as you, ala71, I'm sorry you can't handle FACTS without dismissing them as "psycho-babble". I HONOR AND ULTIMATELY RESPECT the fact that TWD is ex-military and pro-gun. Damn right I do. I love and defend ALL TEN amendments of the U.S. Constitution that make up the Bill of Rights. INCLUDING THE SECOND. Maybe it will surprise you to know that I am a proud member of the NRA and not the "bleeding heart" cartoon character liberal you try to paint me as.

OH YEAH...and don't you DARE mention Frank Rizzo and George W. Bush in the same breath. Bush won because he lied his ass off to the American people and half of us were dumb enough to buy into the lies. And that is the polar opposite of what Frank Rizzo was all about.

Frank Rizzo, like him or not, was always true to himself. He wasn't a liar or a cheat. And you always knew where you stood with him. He was a working class guy, a cop's cop; who was loved (and hated) in this city because he had the guts to stand up and be his own man. He didn't have a rich daddy to bail him out every time he screwed up. He scratched and clawed and fought for everything he earned in his life.

Ask his son Frank Rizzo Jr., who has a radio show Saturdays on WPEN 950 AM how he would feel about a man in stateside military service his powerful daddy arranged for so he wouldn't have to fight in Vietnam going AWOL from his tour of duty to join a family friend's political campaign in Alabama.

And while you're at it, ask him how his father would react if you said he encouraged his police to employ police brutality. Frank Rizzo, as street cop, Police Commissioner, Mayor, and private citizen LOVED his police force... AND the people of Philadelphia. He was a tough guy and he didn't take crap from ANYBODY... but he wasn't Bull Connor in 1960's Alabama or LA's Darryl Gates (who was in charge of the cops who beat the hell out of that scumbag piece of crap criminal Rodney King). Frank Rizzo believed in fighting fire with fire. I remember him once bragging his police force could "invade Cuba and win". Above all, Frank Rizzo kept us SAFE. But he did it by wisely picking out his battles and punishing the RIGHT people. The REAL criminals. Not by employing random brutality. There is NOTHING about the career of Frank Rizzo you can credibly compare to the career of George W. Bush. It's a TERRIBLE analogy.

If you wish to take issue with me, ala71, that's fine... you go ahead and you bring it. I got plenty of ammunition on my side. But don't drag Frank Rizzo into the debate. I'm quite certain he wouldn't like the way you characterized his lifetime of service.

Finally, bigandmean, I'm sorry that the tone of my posts is so shrill. I AM really pissed off. Not because we lost (ok, ok... maybe a LOT of it IS because we lost, and by so close a margin)... but because of the steadfast way folks on the right (not necessarily you) CONSTANTLY and arrogantly refuse to EVER admit any action of wrongdoing by any of your guys... or offer any remarks in disagreement to the party line. It is MADDENING. I don't mind gloating and/or whining, and I don't mind sharp criticism... as long as there is intellectual honesty behind your critiques. I would have SO MUCH MORE respect for right wingers if they could occasionally say, "Yes, you're right, that was a mistake... we should have done this thing or that differently." instead of constantly circling the wagons and parroting talking points from the Heritage Foundation, or some other right wing think tank.

The election is over, and yes, we got our heads handed to us. Gloat if you like, you've earned that right. But not for too long, huh??? We'll be watching to see what Mr. Bush does with that "political capital" he's about to spend, and we'll be there to hold him accountable when he screws up. Just like you guys were when Bill Clinton screwed up. That's our JOB as patriotic Americans. But for now, the ball is in your court. The Presidency, the Congress, and soon the Supreme Court will all be in the hands of Conservatives. I don't want to hear any of you whining about Bill Clinton if things go bad.

Let's just hope the President makes good on his promises to reach out to us folks on the other side of the aisle. We're still out here and 49% of the country is dreading what this man is going to do to our country. Let's hope that THIS term he acts as a President for ALL the people, not just the folks in the Red states.

Guys, we need to set this partisan nonsense aside and remember that there are bad guys STILL out there trying to kill us.... and they don't give a damn if we're a liberal or a conservative. When the family home is on fire, you don't fight over who gets to hold the fire hose. YOU PUT THE DAMN THING OUT.

Let's thank God we live in a country where we can live and disagree and scream at each other and there is no secret police force anywhere to take us away never to be heard from again. I love America, as I'm sure you guys on the right do, and I hope and pray that God guides George W Bush to make the right decisions to keep us all safe and to prosper as a nation. I WANT America to do well. But I ALSO want it to do GOOD. We'll see what happens.

vrangel said...

Now that you explained yourself I retract "communist" label. I was wrong.

By the way I labeled Bush as "borrow and spend conservative" right here on this blog couple of weeks ago. That's about the only thing I hold against him.

HowardFromPhilly said...

Apology accepted.

Bigandmean said...

Howard,
She said something naughty and apologized. You said conservatives never say they were wrong but one just did. How about you returning the favor? You said some pretty naughty things too and included all of us who were in disagreement with you. How about it?

Bigandmean said...

Jamie,
If you knew us better you wouldn't be ashamed to be our neighbor. Canada is a great country and we're proud to have it and it's people as our neighbors. Come down to Texas sometime and check us out.

vrangel said...

Oh come on, just as I wanted to say "screw Canada" you ruin all the fun. :P

Jamie said...

Only a conservative would use the word "liberal" as a dirty word. I use the term with respect. If the Bush administration is conservative, or even the Harpers party, I'm a homosexual who has actually been to the moon and danced to "its raining men".

theres nothing wrong with being american before you jump down my back, its being an american trapped in another america you don't belong to and have no power to change anymore, thats the real tragedy

Its being an american who had to watch segregation in the 21st century. what do you think about a government that uses referendum on an election year ballot?

Let me get this 'straight'.

So if I want the right to see my partner of seven years in the hospital, or to take sick leave to care for him, or make medical decisions if he is unable to, or get benefits through Social Security, get tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks, family discounts, obtain family insurance through my employer etc, then it's an 'unimportant issue" because I'm a 'homo' who wants 'self-validation' for my kinks?

I don't claim and never have claimed Canada as perfect, but we haven't had a vote on segregation since I have been a voter, and if we had, I wouldn't sit here and try and explain it away under a flasehood of "family values". Bigorty is bigotry, its time you faced your racism together...

Frater Bovious said...

Hello? Hello, calling Lefty Jones...

Is this thing on?

Where did you go, and who's been posting on your blog?
fb

vrangel said...

No Jamie, its not about tax breaks and other goodies.
Its about my son who, as he grows up, will be told that being gay is the same as being straight, that he can marry another guy and live happily thereafter. I dont want that.

Gays want to be accepted as mainstream, society by 80% margin says no. There is also polygamy and what not out there. And I am willing to tolerate that too to some degree. But you cant please them all. They will have to resign themselves to living an "alternative" lifestyle.

It's not persecution, its non-acceptance and I am well withing my rights to state it.

ALa said...

Howeird: Just like a LIBERAL...you obviously didn't EVEN READ what I wrote (or maybe you just didn't comprehend it)...I didn't compare GWB to Rizzo...I knew Rizzo...my parent's best friend was his bodyguard...I said that GWB won in the same manner Rizzo used to win. He was always down in the polls and yet always won and the press just didn't get it...
...r-e-a-d-i-n-g c-o-m-p-r-e-h-e-n-s-i-o-n...
p.s. 4 million votes is a pretty large margin...

HowardFromPhilly said...

Bigandmean.... vrangel apologized to me for calling me a "Communist" and I accepted it. No problem there. You tell me what I said that offended you, and if I think it was unfair, I'll apologize. My problem is not necessarily with individual Conswervative voters per se (though they can be MADDENING, too)... but the talking heads in the media. Show me when an Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity or G. Gordon Liddy or Ollie North ever says, "You know, I apologize... I was wrong about that" and I'll look at Conservatives with less cynicism. But I'm not holding my breath. As quickly as these guys are to jump on the NY Times and CBS when they get something wrong... they are just that quick to cover up their own screw-ups and outright lies by telling even more OUTRAGEOUS lies (do you really THINK that John Kerry "had LITERALLY 80 positions on Iraq?" Come on. You know better.) And they get away with it because nobody holds them accountable.

Anyway, as I said, you said I said some "pretty naughty things". You tell me what I said that offended you and I'll be happy to discuss it with you. And rest assured, if you ask.... I'll give you my HONEST opinion, even if it doesn't favor my agenda. Just don't ask any questions you don't really want the answers to, because I call it like I see it and let the chips fall where they may. OK? OK.

Jamie said...

vrangel, while it is extremely hard not to comment on the bigotry of your post I will correct you.

It may not be about tax breaks to you, its equality. You may feel you don't want to raise your son in an equal society, and sad to hear that as he will no doubt grom up to be as bigoted as his father, but its not up to you to FORCE your opinions and "values" which are masked to hide your bigotry.

There is a reason the Pentagon has 300+ bathrooms, look it up.

I remember the the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.

Are you (as a society) not enlightened enough to move forward from that dark period?

I don't care about your bigotry, its imposing it on a minority who has zero say and zero clout in any corridor of power. March the streets against the gay community, thats your right. amending the Constitution to REMOVE rights from a certain group of people is historically unheard of in your country. Period.

HowardFromPhilly said...

ala71.... You don't have even a little bit of decency in your whole body, do you, sir? I guess you figure plain pure nastiness takes the place of intelligence. What a wonderful example you must make for those poor children of yours. I think maybe you're the one who needs the lesson in reading comprehension. (Sigh) OK... I'll break down what I said... AGAIN... in real small words so that even a nasty, small minded like you can understand what I am saying.

I said BUSH won because he lied his ass off to the American people... and half of us were dumb enough to buy into the lies. I could spend a week recounting all of Bush's lies, but you'd dismiss it as "psycho-babble" and throw a few more nasty remarks my way because you're either incapable of dealing with FACTS you don't like or too damn lazy to formulate a fact-based response.

Your assertion that Bush won in the same manner as Frank Rizzo is pure and utter BS. Your fairy tale about him "polling at the lowest numbers and then sweeping elections" is just laughably ridiculous. He fought a lot of close races, but he NEVER "polled at the lowest numbers." That's just a bald faced lie. Besides... what does that have to do with the way Bush won? Bush was ahead in the polls almost the whole way through!!! What the HELL are you babbling about????

You said Bush won because of "the Frank Rizzo factor". Then, like a typical right wing coward, when I called you on your lie, you resorted to nasty personal attacks. I said that Frank Rizzo never resorted to a campaign of lies and deception to run for office like Bush did to TRY to feel safe. HE ACTUALLY MADE PEOPLE SAFE. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. So you were wrong about that, too. Frank Rizzo never got on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier in a G.I. Joke Haloween suit with a sign behind him saying "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" for the TV cameras to make people "feel" safe. Rizzo GOT THE JOB DONE. You honestly don't understand the difference, do you?

You said that Rizzo employed brutality but hid it from the cameras. You got that wrong, too. He showed strong, no-nonsense STRENGTH. But not brutality (random acts of violence). I remember him and his cops strip searching the Black Panthers on Columbia Ave. ON TV. I remember the 1980 World Series where he sent the horses onto the field. It doesn't get more public than that.

You said, "No one ever wanted to admit that they liked him...it wasn't PC. He would poll at the lowest numbers and then sweep elections. They might have wanted to turn a blind eye to his methods -or not admit to their friends that they thought he was great...but they all knew he got the job done!" Bull. I've lived here most of my life, give or take a couple months. Everyone knew who Frank Rizzo was and what he stood for. I know of NOBODY who was ashamed to say they were going to vote for Rizzo. Maybe YOU were. Maybe you're a coward. Maybe all your friends are cowards. Unless you're a black guy. I don't know. The Rizzo I remember was wildly popular in the white neighborhoods, fairly popular in the Asian and Hispanic areas and unpopular in the black neighborhoods. So if you are a black guy, yeah, it wasn't PC to like Rizzo. It's a shameful disgrace, but like a lot of big cities, the stink of racism affects our elections here in Philly. A lot of black folks hated Rizzo because he went after CRIMINALS.... white or black. And he didn't care if they cried "racism." HE GOT HIS MAN. Period. And he did get a lot of votes of black folks who wouldn't tell that to their friends and neighbors. But Rizzo created JOBS in those neighborhoods and kept them SAFE. You can pretend that Bush did that, too... but you'd be a damn liar. You know of any jobs created in North or West Philly these past 4 years? Do YOU feel safe to walk around those streets in those neighborhoods at 3 AM???? No, I thought not.
Finally,

HowardFromPhilly said...

Finally.... your P.S. about a 4 million popular vote margin shows just what a weasel you are. I have no doubt that 4 years ago, when Al Gore won the popular vote by over half a million votes, you were whining that "Popular vote doesn't matter. Only the electoral vote." Now you want to say that a 2% margin is... WHAT? A "MANDATE"???? Sure. Let's pretend that 49% of the population doesn't hate the job this man has done as our President. Guys like you are living proof of the old saying "figures don't lie... but liars figure."

vrangel said...

Jamie, tell me more about the rights of polygamists then. It's all consentual, you know. I fail to see why it would be a different case.

I am not barging into their bedrooms by the way, they can live their lives the way they want.

As for insults, I know who I am, you can stop banging your head against keyboard. My redneck friends tell me it causes carpal tunnel syndrome. :P

Bigandmean said...

OK Howard, you win. I'm not going to play games with you. You go back and read your own commennts. Once was enough for me, thanks.

All of us who disagree with you, including our President must be lying facists and not very smart ones at that.

You on the other hand are righteous victims once again and that justifies the hate and mean-sprited ranting that passes for political discourse. I can't attribute your attitude to anything but blind obeidiance to ideology or emotional immaturity or both which makes any attempt to have a rational discussion with you a waste of time.

Jamie,

If you do come to Texas, make sure you don't mention that you're ashamed to be our neighbor. There are real men here, unlike the ones you apparently hang out with, and they'd take great offense at such a rude remark.

Jamie said...

"the United States on most of the core cultural issues is much closer to Nigeria and Saudi Arabia than to Europe and Japan" - PEW foundation....

god

gays

guns


Reformation needed....badly...start here and let the healing begin
Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse

vrangel said...

In response to Jamie.

I live in New York suburb, 20 min. drive from Manhattan.
I am an atheist and so is my wife. I never saw a Bible in my life.

I had to send my older son to a Catholic school (I am paying for it) to get some decent education, because public schools in the area are garbage thanks to clueless ideologues like you who dominate the system.

My attitude: if some people have faith, more power to them.

Jamie said...

you said:"clueless ideologues like you who dominate the system."

Wanting equal protection instead of amendments removing rights makes me a clueless ideologue?? on top of that, people like me ruined your education system??

I feel like I am on crazy pills...

Yikes...ooooook pal...good luck with alllll that.

*Bush to Seek Gay-Marriage Ban in New Term*

President Bush will renew a quest in his second term for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage as essential to a "hopeful and decent" society, his top political aide said on Sunday.

vrangel said...

You have it backwards. There is no such thing as "gay marriage" and never has been. It's been invented by left wing ideologues to present it as something that already exists. Then they can cry about "removal" of rights, just like you do.

Polygamists have a better case, since it's legal in moslem countries. Go ahead and present your case for polygamy, I could use a second wife.
/end sarcasm

ALa said...

Howard...you are the reason the suburbs are thriving...I was not a 'sir' the last time I looked down...for the 20th time, I wasn't saying anything bad about Rizzo -he rocked as a mayor...I am NOT wrong about the police brutality --but I don't think there is anything wrong with roughing up the bad guys...Bush was not polling at the margin that he won -remember Zogby?...Rizzo did poll lower than the margins he won...you ARE the typical frothing, bitter liberal...I am mad that I planned to take ANY result from the election well...I planned to lose gracefully even when I knew the other side wouldn't...I also won gracefully until I came into contact with you...normally I wouldn't have even engaged, but I hate that you are the typical Philadelphian...I bet you even voted for John Street...more than once...*sigh*

HowardFromPhilly said...

Ala71... I apologize for mistaking your gender. Your testosterone laden, hate-filled nasty little personal attacks naturally led me to believe you were a man. The fact that you are a woman carrying this kind of vile, vicious, venomous hate around inside you makes it all that more pathetic in my eyes. YOU are the one who jumped on ME and made it personal. Remember?

It's abundantly obvious that it's impossible to have a reasonable dialog with you. You're just another typical ignorant neo-con who's just convinced yourself you are a genius. You just don't work and place well with other people. How sad. Seriously. It really makes me feel sad for your poor family. And for you, too. I wonder if you ever have a happy day. I never saw such a sore WINNER in my entire life. Sad, sad, sad. :-(

What supreme arrogance you have to tell me what goes on in my own city. Me...who LIVES in this city, and has a LOT of family and friends who are cops for many, many years AND ALSO has many friends and family who are journalists, social workers and police watchdog lobbyists (the seatings at my family reunions are a BITCH). But, of course, you know better than all of these people (most of whom, I hasten to add, are Republicans) and to hell with the facts, so there's no point in trying to tell you anything. You know it all. Tell me... is the view THAT good from the cheap seats?

People like you aggravate me as much as the left-wing lapdogs who e-mail me from Europe and Canada and all over these United States that try to convince me that Mumia Abu-Jamal has been wrongfully convicted. What the hell do THEY know???

It's completely evident that you have your mind made up and you come to places like this NOT to learn, NOT to converse, NOT to share, but rather... to attack. I'm finished wasting keystrokes trying to tell you what is going on in the world. Enjoy yourself.

Stay in your little suburb, and watch Fox News on your cable TV behind your white picket fence and have a nice life. And please, whatever you do, don't move into the city. It THRILLS me to hear you are on the outside looking in. Have a nice, safe, sheltered life. I hope and pray that God softens your heart and opens your mind in the days and week and months and (hopefully) years to come. Good health to you and yours.

Oh, and by the way... I voted for Sam Katz... twice. John Street is not only a crook... he is living proof that one can be well educated... and still be a jackass.

free0352 said...

TWD

Oh quit kicking and screaming already! This temper tantrum makes you look like a nit whit! You lost already, get over it! Why in the hell did your party run who they ran anyway? Was the issue ever in dout?

What really kills me is the Democrats latching on to gay marraige as the reason for thier loss. GWB downplayed his support and Kerry was publically against it. It wasn't gay marraige. It wasn't god guns and Nascar or whatever the hell is on the news that has Katy Couric wearing black (priceless)

The bottom line is while the Dems own the West coast and new england the Republicans own everything in between. Frankly, more people live in the south, the mid-west, and the south west than in new york and California. It wasn't christian wakos who ellected Bush, It was everyday people. it is the pure fact that when your party quits running left wing liberals, you will start winning ellections. Mid America hates a liberal, and your party needs a few sothern states (hey, how about one!) and some mid west territory to pick up an office.

And I wouldn't expect a hand across the isle except to slap you. When we controll the house, senate, and executive branch, and soon the supream court, we don't need to make nice with the dems. If Bush moves like I think he will, he will use this four years to DESTROY your party. And god if I can't help but hope he does, its what I'd do. In a partisan world, can you blame him? You would. I'd like to see a more middle of the road, common sense based Democratic party come about out of this ellection. It would mean a safer world. I know not all Dems are anti-war protesting, spiting on soldiers, baby killing, gun stealing, law enforcement undermining, tax and spend wakos. But I'm the minority, most people think this is exactly who you are. About 51% of America to be exact. Abandon this immage by dumping the radicals, it's your only hope. I

free0352 said...

Liberalnitwitfromphilly

Dued, why not attack you? We're trying to win controll of the country here, we woun't do that playing nice. "Oh pah-leeeeese stop winning ellections Republicans! It isn't faaaaaaaaaaaair!" yeah right...

People like you are going the way of the whig dude, can't you just go gracefully? No, didn't think so. I probly wouldn't either. We're not full of hate, we're not religious radicals, we're not trying to enslave the working man, we're not racist, we don't hate islam, we don't even hate you. At least I don't, and I've got a lot of reason to.

We just want to stop you from turning the United States into Canada, that's all.

free0352 said...

There is only ONE kind of equality here in America.

Equal protection under the law.

The Democratic notion of economic or social equality is both counter productive and unconstitutional. Let alone immoral and down right silly. When you stop trying to re-distribute my wages and property to those not capabile of procuring them for themselves, you will start winning more ellections. I am not a bad person because I make a good living, and I am not obligated to give one cent away to another person. Yet your party forces me to do just this, against my will, violating my property rights out of some sense that the have nots in this country are owed some entitlement. Fuck them says I. If you want my vote to the Democrat side, stop ripping the very food my seven year old eats off her plate through your right stealing, immoral taxes that make me a slave, and distributing that money for health care, forced charity, and government waste programs. Keep it simple, roads, defense, and judicial system. I'm tierd of resembling our very boaring neighbor to the north.

ALa said...

Howard:
I went back and re-read my first comment and I don't see where it was so hate-filled..., but OK....if you say-so. If I offended you I am sorry...like I said, I was feeling quite gracious BUT upon reading TWD's rant (who used to be quite level-headed) and then yours I was FED UP. Having two young kids...I turn to the blogosphere to ESCAPE the whining. My bad this week. As you will see by MY POST the day after the election, I was hardly a sore-winner. I may be a bit impatient with the sulking...but not a bad winner. I do apologize if I offended your sensibilities... (even though -in my estimation -you were nastier than I have ever been...)
p.s. I never said I didn't live in the city...

Jamie said...

big·ot ~ noun One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

vrangel said...

Be my second wife. :P

Bigandmean said...

Ala,
You've got nothing whatsoever to apologize for. Both you and I tried to make peace with our political opposites but they are having none of it. Howard gets irate if any critical comments are directed towards him but seems to think it's quite alright to direct vile, insulting and hate filled comments towards others.

We both tried to reach out to democrats since the election and where did it get us? The same thing it got Bush after reaching out to Dashle and Kennedy in 2001. (and look where that got Dashle!!!)

We can't attempt rapproachment with mean-sprited infantile jerks and hate filled emotional cripples.

What we can do is continue to kick their butts in national elections like we've been doing. Don't try to reach out to them. And don't tell them why they won't win again for the foreseeable future. Just like at the carnival folks, a winner every time! Damn, it's good to win!

Now that was my first genuine GLOAT since the election and it felt really good. There may be more where that came from.

fbg46 said...

Before we all get too far afield going after one another about the "moral values" election . . . the first quantitative evidence of the election results is in, and it indicates that "moral values" played little if any role at all.

A poli sci prof at UVA has done some econometrics - type stuff on the election data and comes up with the following conclusion: The 3% increase in the vote which Bush got in 2004 over 2000 came from a 10% increase in the voters who: a) thought terrorism/national security the most important issue, and; b) who thought Bush was better at it than Kerry.
This held true on both a state - by -state level and on a national level.

On the other hand, there was a 10% increase in voters who stated that "moral values" was the key determinant in their vote (Again, comparing 2004 vs. 2000). That translated into no effect on the final talley (The article is by Paul Freedman on Slate.)

There is still alot of number - crunching to be done on these election results, but if this holds true then the majority, if not all, of the 3% of the voters that Bush got over Kerry this time may be due to the "War on Terrrrrrr" Remember, it was Karl who all those many months ago said that Dear Leader was going to be running on the war.

Before we start ripping each others' throats out over who has the inside track to the Almighty, let's make sure that's what the tipping point was.

Clearly we Dems have to figure out a way to reach some/all of the Red States, but first we need to know better than we know now why it is we didn't do so this time.

Just because Karl and the trained seals which pass for the media have anointed this election as the "moral values" one doesn't necessarily make it so.

Jamie said...

First of all, Slate offers both left and right sides of issues.

Second of all, pretty much everyone knows that values are what decided the election. You finding a random opinion piece that says they didn't (whether left or right in origin) proves nothing except your need to decide on something beforehand, then scramble for something (anything!) to back it up. Kind of like the MO of the entire Bush administration.

one of the topics on the mclaughlin group today was about how gay marriage was probably the single issue that won bush the election. 22% of voters said this was the single most important issue to them and 80% of those voted bush.

and last. the exit polls in 2000 DID NOT I repeat DID NOT use the same questions for comparrison

fbg46 said...

Jamie:
Thanks for providing us with an example of faith based argument vs. reality - based argument.

When you start talking about "what everyone knows" and "random opinion piece", alarm bells start going off in the reality - based world. I don't presume to know "what everyone knows", that's why I read articles such as Freedman's, which, whatever you may think it is, is something different than an "opinion piece". A fair inference to be drawn from the article he's written is that he has applied the quantitative tools of political science and economics to the problem at hand -- he's done some regression analyses on the data available and drawn some conclusions therefrom. That's all testable stuff.

You quarrel with the results? Fine. Test it. Do your own econometrics on the data.

But you haven't done that. You'd rather rely on the talking heads on the McLaughlin Group for information. Great, knock yourself out. But before you do, note that Freedman specifically dealt with the data you cited and indicated that his number crunching showed it has zero statistical significance.

Your last point is a valid one, which Freedman points out: the questions weren't the same, so of course there is some uncertainty in his conclusions. But few things in this area are ever certain, and Public Policy programs devote entire courses to decisionmaking under conditons of uncertainty.

So until you crunch the numbers . . . some of us will stick with reality, thanks.

Jamie said...

"So until you crunch the numbers . . . some of us will stick with reality, thanks."

LOL I provided alternative studies which doesn't jive with your example so I'm the one being unrealistic..how facinating..

Since you love crunching numbers so much heres some for you to chew on:

Palm Beach County Logs 88,000 More Votes Than Voters
November 5, 2004 04:56 PM

According to the official election results posted on the Palm Beach County election website, 542,835 ballots were cast for a presidential candidate while only 454,427 voters turned out for the election (including absentee). This leaves a discrepancy of 88,408 votes cast for the presidential candidates.

Palm Beach County's supervisor of elections is Theresa LePore who is known for the 2000 Presidential Election and the notorious "butterfly ballot" that caused confusion among seniors and other Floridians.

Other election oddities occurred throughout Florida with some counties registering a 400% increase in expected voter turnout among Republicans while Democrats supposedly experienced a -60% decline in expected support within certain counties. The 50+ counties experiencing the high percentage fluctuations in expected turnout used optical scan voting machines on November 2nd.

Vote discrepancies were also found in Gahanna, Ohio which gave an extra 4,000 votes to President Bush. The error was explained away by Franklin County administrators as a "glitch" in the electronic voting system.

Update: Palm Beach County has updated their numbers and added 91,802 absentee ballots and 1,041 provisional ballots. The vote totals for president increased by 1,543. To view an archived copy of the previous report, click here. While Palm Beach County appears to have accounted for the discrepancy, this underscores the flaws in the system and data compilation.

HowardFromPhilly said...

Bigandmean,

I'm sorry if you are offended by my "hateful" remarks. I certainly don't think that all Conservatives are fascists, or not very smart. I'm sorry if you got that impression. I don't hate you, or ala, or Conservatives as a whole. And your remarks about mean-sprited infantile jerks and hate filled emotional cripples are completely beneath you. I don't come to these blogs to engage in name calling. I come to expess myself and proudly exercise my 1st Amendment rights as an American as an American, and to hear what's on the mind of my fellow Americans.

What you are perceiving as hate on my part is my frustration that so many good and decent people simply are refusing to look at the many mistakes George W. Bush is doing as our President that are harming our American people. ALL of them. Including those folks out in the Red states.

It's OK if you don't like me. It's a free country and you're entitled to your opinion. But facts are facts and you can't rewrite history.

When I say George W. Bush has failed to make our nation a safer place, you are free to disagree with that OPINION. But how can you overlook the fact that George W Bush has withdrawn from the anti-ballistic missile treaty, opening the floodgates to nuclear proliferation? I want to know, without name calling , how this makes us safer?

An August 6, 2001 Daily Presidential briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US." was ignored by President Bush. You know what happened a little over a month later. I remember the tragic day of Sept. 11, 2001 thinking,"How on Earth did our Government allow 2 airplanes to deviate wildly off their flight plan to crash into the World Trade Center and another into the Pentagon without being intercepted by military aircraft?" That was a mistake. Now... you can't necessarily blame the President completely for that. Who could have expected such an insane act? BUT... has he taken actions to see we don't get caught with our pants down like that again? I don't know. None of us do. But isn't THAT what the 2004 election should have been about, instead of whining and moaning about which candidate had a more honorable military record in the 1960's???

Now in the days AFTER 9/11/2001, a tragic day for us all, under George W. Bush's watch, the Bin Laden family was allowed to leave our nation for Saudi Arabia without a single intelligence or law enforcement agency asking them a single question. And though Bush personally denied personal responsibility for that decision, it was a mistake. Can you imagine what Sean Hannity would have said if Bill Clinton would have allowed Timothy McVeigh's family to leave for, say, Canada days after the Oklahoma City Bombing without the FBI interviewing them? Hannity (and the rest of the right wing media) would have hammered Clinton.... and they would have been right to do so.

This is not to deny the great job the President did in the days after the tragedy of restoring order out of a chaotic and dangerous episode in our nation's history. George W. Bush, for a brief shining moment, made good on his promise to be a uniter, not a divider. Under his inspired leadership, for a brief moment, we were one people. Nor Republicans. Not Democrats. AMERICANS. And the whole world stood with us. And any Democrat or liberal who tries to deny this is simply not being intellectually honest.

But then, instead of following through on the great initiative he created, he decided to spend his political capital to advance his private agenda instead of focusing on our nation's security. Huge, tragic mistake.

Mr. Bush fought tooth and nail against creating a Department of Homeland Security and to hire more federal screeners at America's airports, before he flip-flopped and acquiesced to liberal pressure to create the Homeland Security Department and to hire the extra screeners.

I'm not going to get into Iraq...I could right a whole book about Iraq and it's just going to start a partisan fight. There are more important concerns that we, Liberals and Conservatives alike, need to hold the President's and Congress's feet to the fire on.

For example, exercising tighter controls on our borders. It isn't just illegal aliens from Mexico in search of jobs capable of slipping over the border. Al Qaeda and their scumbag buddies can slip across just as easily. Even easier, in fact. This needs to be addressed if we are to be safe.

What has the President done to tighten up our immigration policy? What is he going to do? This is important. As we speak, people are coming here from places all over the Islamic world and other places that don't like us very much... and once admitted in, they are free to roam the country. They are supposed to check in with the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), and leave the country after a certain period of time, but if they don't, there's nothing we do about it. We need to address THIS if we are to be safe.

There's no controls over where foreign students here on visas are able to secure employment. We have medical students and engineering students from all over the world with access to nuclear materials and biological and chemical toxins in their jobs in hospitals, chemical plants, nuclear power plants (YES! NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS!!!), etc. We also have foreign students on visas working in places like water filtration plants and food processing plants. That scares the hell out of me. It ought to scare the hell out of you.

The thought of Muhammad the medical student getting some smallpox samples from his job at the lab and delivering then to his engineering student pal Abdul who works at the water filtration plant to dump this poison into a municipal water supply... and then give some to their friend Hassan to inject into, say, poultry.... well.... it keeps me up at night.

God help us all if that happens. And if it ever did happen, there's a good chance the perpetrators might get away Scot-free. We never did catch the anthrax killer(s) that were poisoning Ameican citizens in the mail. Not only do we not keep tabs on these students here on visas.... we give 'em back their Social Security and Medicare tax!!! The IRS sent Mohammed Atta, a 9/11 terrorist here on a student visa, a CHECK to repay him for Social Security/Medicare payments his American employers withheld from his pay.... A YEAR AFTER HE KILLED HIMSELF AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS IN THAT VICIOUS ATTACK UPON OUR NATION! And THAT scares the hell out of me, too. What are we doing to close these immigration loopholes? We need to fix this.

Our ports are wide open to attack. So much cargo goes through our ports that is completely uninspected it is truly frightening. One of these days, if we don't fix this, it's going to come back and bite us in the butt BIG TIME.

So, when I address these VERY IMPORTANT concerns and jump up and down screaming these issues are MORE IMPORTANT to spend money on than giving tax cuts to the very wealthy.... please don't dismiss it as hate rhetoric. I do not hate Americans. I love them and I want to see them protected. And the plain and simple truth is that the President needs to do a better job than he has done. And if John Kerry had won, I'd be laying these same issues at his doorstep as well. As should we all. It's time for all Americans to step up and demand the protection we are paying for with our tax dollars, and stop the partisan bickering. If we don't... we're all screwed.

Just remember, the ball is now in your court. You Conservatives are gloating you have the White House, Congress, and soon, the Supreme Court. Go ahead and gloat if you must. But remember, with great power, comes great responsibility. These important issues of security are in YOUR hands now. If you drop the ball... you have nobody to blame but yourselves. Let us all hope and pray that day doesn't come.

Bigandmean said...

Howard,
Well done. That was a thoughtful, well articulated opinion piece with no references to lying weasels or other like vermin.

If the exchange of opinion and ideas is continued in the future with more of the same from both sides there's hope for us yet.

In the meantime, I hope you stay as passionate an advocate for your side and continue with posts such as these. And forget about Canada. It's too damn cold.

frstlymil said...

Thanks for your blog. I'm astounded that some of the responses seem to treat the anguish people feel over Bush being elected to another four years like the petty bad mood of some over losing a ball game. But those people voted for a man who speaks at a low sixth grade level and they appreciate how he talks "like one o'them." Something I wouldn't proudly admit to, frankly. They see him as a man they think they could sit down and have a beer with. I don't want to have a beer with a man that I want to run the country. I want a man that can run the country. I'm interested in finding out the definition some of these responders have to the term "liberal" and if it actually means anything to them other than a word used frequently with a particularly unpleasant tone by conservative commentators. Globally, we have a problem. We have a globe concerned over the richest country in the free world going bankrupt and what that will do not only to the U.S., but to the rest of the world. We have people who are actually Christian in the spiritual sense, not the political sense, who worry about reverting our country back to the persecution of the 17th century. We have people who are very concerned, both nationally and internationally about how we are currently representing democracy - we are promoting and ramming it down the throats of other countries, while simultaneously tearing it down here at home. There are those on the west and east coast who did not vote for Bush, and who are in the sitting duck location of another terrorist strike because of the coastal geography. No one wants to bomb a grain mill. All those in the mid-west who voted again, really have nothing to fear about a terrorist attack. Curious that those who actually do, voted for someone other than the man who got us into this mess. I am devastated by this election to find out that the majority of this country are actually small minded, petty, poorly informed individuals who are predominantly bigoted and hateful of anything or anyone who thinks differently than them. Rather similar mindset to those of the fanatical Al Quaida. This country voted not for another four years, but another 40. And threw out checks and balances in the process.

Bigandmean said...

frstlymil,
Your anguish over Bush being re-elected is understandable. Your readiness to demonize others who disagree with you is not.

You claim that those who disagreed with you in this election are small-minded, petty, bigoted, hateful, poorly informed fanatics and you lament the fact that such name calling is not understood and tolerated by the great unwashed more readily.

Now really. How can we be understanding and tolerant if we are so small-minded and uninformed?

Mourning a lost election is one thing. Acting like a spoiled emotionally crippled brat is quite another. It's time to grow up.

free0352 said...

BIGANDMEAN

you rock dude

frstlymil said...

Dearest Big and Mean:

Exactly. How CAN you be tolerant and understanding if you are uninformed. I urge that you become so. I must repeat again. This was not a ball game. Read a history book. Read newspapers from other countries that are also lamenting this election and what it might mean at a global level. I'm not upset over people disagreeing with ME - this is not about me, but the world we are all living in together. This is about actually researching patterns of American history and actually living in an urban environment horribly effected by the present administration's policies and fiscal irresponsibility. This is about looking in the eyes of young women and men who have young husbands and wives over in Iraq who joined up so they could get their college tuition, and who might not come home, and are finding out that they got manipulated into joining the service to fight a war for oil rights that is NOT about the nifty wall street slogan "War on Terror" and has become far more dangerous in the result. This is about making a point to turn off the television and going out there to observe what's actually going on. And since you did not respond to anything other than the final paragraph of the post, I will assume you scanned and did not read.

vrangel said...

Stop whining already. This case has been made by Democrats, they lost. That's what elections are for.

Unless you are unhappy about democracy itself and want some sort of Plato's "republic" ruled by self-appointed "wise men". You know , like Al Gore, Howard Dean and such.

Democratic party is in business of winning elections. Berating voters for going the other way won't get them anywhere.

As for you personally do us unwashed readers of this blog a favor and start using paragraphs. Nobody likes to stare at a solid wall of text.

HowardFromPhilly said...

Free0352:

There isn't any reason you can't express your point of view without resorting to name-calling. I am not a "nitwit". I am an American and I've got every much right to my opinion as you do. That kind of name-calling doesn't do ONE thing to strengthen your arguments or win liberals over to your side. It just creates hate amongst us at the very time we should be pulling together to fight the common enemy.... international terrorism.

There are some very bad people out there trying to kill us. ALL of us. You may care who is Liberal and who is Conservative.... but I PROMISE YOU... they don't give a damn. They'd just as soon shoot you as shoot me. You may not like me.... that's fine... but really.... who's side are you on? We are stronger as a nation... as a PEOPLE... if we stay united AS a people and face the enemy TOGETHER instead of sniping at one another.

You asked why shouldn't you attack me? Because we're AMERICANS. Both your side and my side. The founding fathers of our nation CAME HERE to escape getting their asses kicked every time they exercised a free thought or tried to worship God the way they wanted and lived their lives in a way the folks running the government didn't like.

Look... I respect your service to our nation. Thank you. We BOTH love our country, I have no doubt about that. The difference between you and me is that you want to DESTROY me and mine (you said so yourself; go back and read your posts).... and I want to defend and protect you and yours. People like me want to make sure the working guy has a chance to compete in the free markets, send his kids to college, and have protection from all threats, both foreign and domestic. Does THAT make me a "nitwit"?

The problem with guys like you, I think, is that in your dog-eat-dog, winner take all, us vs. them vision of what you want America to be, is that you don't seem to realize (possibly never will), that in the grand scheme of things.... YOU'RE a "them", too.

If you're telling us that paying your tax bill is "ripping the very food my seven year old eats off her plate", then, dammit, you are NOT making a good enough living, dammit, to compensate you for your hard work in the USMC and in the US Justice system. It INFURIATES me that our President would seek to cut the salaries of U.S. military personnel in time of war.

It further enrages me that some of the hugest corporations in America are not paying A DIME of taxes to the U.S. Government because they created a phony "World Headquarters" in Bermuda that has a couple of corporate officers and a few dozen secretaries working there. You want to talk about stealing? THAT'S stealing. BILLIONS upon BILLIONS.

Now, you call universal health care some kind of "government conspiracy" to steal your money and give it to those who can't take care of themselves. That's just not so. You're going to foot the bill one way or another.

Think about it. If someone gets catastrophically ill, and their insurance runs out... but they continue to receive the treatments necessary to heal them... who do you think gets to pay that bill once the hospitals and the doctors and the insurance companies have gotten every bit of money they can get from the patient? YOU DO. And so do I. In the form of increased heath care costs.

When you're in the hospital and you read the bill... do you think it REALLY costs them $5.00 for an aspirin pill?? NO! You're subsidizing the non-payers. Look, we DON'T have to make it like Canada's system. One of the things that makes America great is our ingenuity. We have real smart people in the government and in private enterprise who can work out a system where ALL Americans can pay their way and get the coverage they need. And when EVERY American is participating... it's cheaper for all. Everybody wins. So it's NOT "an entitlement". It's NOT an "income distribution" scheme... you're going to pay... one way or another.

Unless, of course, you are suggesting that every person who gets catastrophically ill and can't afford insurance, once the hospital and the doctors, etc. force them to sell off the house, the car, and everything they own, and they still run out of money... throw their asses out into the street regardless of their condition, and, well... fuck 'em.(Your words... not mine.) Now, THAT is pretty damn cold-hearted. I HOPE that's not what you are saying.

Because if that IS what you are saying... imagine if it were you. Suppose you were in, say, God forbid, a car accident or you had a rare medical condition that required expensive surgery to live... and for some reason you weren't able to afford insurance (and let me tell you, I know a HELL of a lot of people working 2 jobs, 16-18 hours a day, breaking their asses to make ends meet and they just can't afford to pay for heath insurance). If THAT is what you are saying (fuck them)... well... I just hope nobody does to you what you want to do to them. I thought Conservatives were supposed to be pro-life.

That is NOT the America I grew up in. The America that's become the greatest nation on Earth. And it's not the America I want future generations to grow up in, either. I don't want to turn America into Canada. And I also don't want America turned into the Christian counterpart to Iran. Now, not ALL Conservatives want to turn us into a fundamentalist Christian nation with no tolerance for opposing points of view... but A LOT OF them do. To deny this is simply not being honest.

The America I love stands for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you don't have life, you damn sure can't have the other two.

In the end... what makes us great, is our ability to disagree and not to tear each other apart. Our diversity, our tolerance of ideas different to our own, our very American sense of right-and-wrong and fair play combined with our reliance on our tremendous work ethic, reliance on personal responsibility, and independent attitude (we don't take crap from ANYBODY)... are the ingredients that have forged us into the greatest nation in the world. We've lost our way, it seems, when so many loyal, patriotic Americans are at each other's throats.

By pulling strength from whatever religion, race, national origin, or political outlook we belong to, instead of draining ourselves fighting amongst one another, we can depend upon the power of divine providence and together achieve victory and prosperity. I hope and pray we are smart enough to do this in the coming years as we face the most serious challenges in perhaps the history of our great republic.

God Bless America.

Bigandmean said...

We certainly don't need to be tearing each other apart. Howard, you and I are on the same team. Even though we may disagree on most things politic, I'm glad you're on my side.

The remark that some reservists were tricked into joining the military because thaey signed up just to get their college tuition paid was pretty sad. It reminded me of Goldie Hawn's movie, Private Benjamin, when her character discovered that she had joined an army where she had to train and live in a tent and not the one with the condos.

Like I said, it's time for some of our countrymen to grow up.

GenevaConventions said...

Credited to / posted by "BlackDahlia" on www.thenoiseboard.com, Nov 6 2004

Fuck the South. Fuck 'em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they'd stay part ofour special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep.

And now what do we get? We're the fucking Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authenticm America. Really?

Cause we fucking founded this country, assholes. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that bullshit about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment giving you the right to keep your automatic weapons in the glove compartment because you didn't bother to read the first half of the fucking sentence? Who do you think those wig-wearing lacy-shirt sporting revolutionaries were? They were fucking blue-staters, dickhead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the fucking monuments are up here in our backyard?

No, No. Get the fuck out. We're not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and fucking Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those fucking stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for fucking blue states. And it would be 10 if those Vermonters had gotten their fucking Subarus together and broken off from New York a little earlier. Get it? We started this shit, so don't get all uppity about how real you are you Johnny-come-lately "Oooooh I've been a state for almost a hundred years" dickheads. Fuck off.

Arrogant? You wanna talk about us Northeasterners being fucking arrogant? What's more American than arrogance? Hmmm? Maybe horsies? I don't think so. Arrogance is the fucking cornerstone of what it means to be American. And I wouldn't be so fucking arrogant if I wasn't paying for your fucking bridges, bitch.

All those Federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from us and goes to you, so shut up and enjoy your fucking Tennessee Valley Authority electricity and your fancy highways that we paid for. And the next time Florida gets hit by a hurricane you can come crying to us if you want to, but you're the ones who built on a fucking swamp. "Let the Spanish keep it, it's a shithole," we said, but you had to have your fucking orange juice.

The next dickwad who says, "It's your money, not the government's money" is gonna get their ass kicked. Nine of the ten states that get the most federal fucking dollars and pay the least... can you guess? Go on, guess. That's right, motherfucker, they're red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? It's too easy, asshole, they're blue states. It's not your money, assholes, it's fucking our money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance? Try this
for self reliance: buy your own fucking stop signs, assholes.

Let's talk about those values for a fucking minute. You and your Southern values can bite my ass because the blue states got the values over you fucking Real Americans every day of the goddamn week. Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate you marriage-hyping dickwads? Well? Can you guess? It's fucking Massachusetts, the fucking center of the gay marriage universe. Yes, that's right, the state you love to tie around the neck of anyone to the left of Strom Thurmond has the lowest divorce rate in
the fucking nation. Think that's just some aberration? How about this: 9 of the 10 lowest divorce rates are fucking blue states, asshole, and most are in the Northeast, where our values suck so bad. And where are the highest divorce rates? Care to fucking guess? 10 of the top 10 are fucking red-ass we're-so-fucking-moral states. And while Nevada is the worst, the Bible belt is doing its fucking part.

But two guys making out is going to fucking ruin marriage for you? Yeah? Seems like you're ruining it pretty well on your own, you little bastards. Oh, but that's ok because you go to church, right? I mean you do, right? Cause we fucking get to hear about it every goddamn year at election time. Yes, we're fascinated by how you get up every Sunday morning and sing, and then you're fucking towers of moral superiority. Yeah, that's a workable formula. Maybe us fucking Northerners don't talk about religion as much as you because we're not so busy sinning, hmmm? Ever think of that, you self-righteous assholes? No, you're too busy erecting giant stone tablets of the Ten Commandments in buildings paid for by the fucking Northeast Liberal Elite. And who has the highest murder rates in the nation? It ain't us up here in the North, assholes.

Well this gravy train is fucking over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leaching, confederate-flag-waving, holier-than-thou, hypocritical bullshit and shove it up your ass.

And no, you can't have your fucking convention in New York next time. Fuck off.

this we'll defend said...

While I understand and in part agree with you on the anger, Genevaconv, as a BA in History I must point out that Jefferson and Washington were both from the red state of VA, and they were pretty important revolutionaries.

And I refuse to let any part of MY country turn to darkness, so for all the red staters who say "get over it" like, as somebody put, it was nothing more than a baseball game, you should realize the reason I wanted Kerry to win, as did many of the "anybody but Bush" crowd, is not because I wanted to "win" or see somebody else lose. It is because I don't like what our nation is becoming, I don't like Bush's policies and practices, and I don't like saddling my children and grandchildren with debt you dumbass red-staters were too ignorant or selfist to realize must one day be paid.

Because I love my country, not just those who worship like I do or look like me. I love ALL my country, even the backwards, ignorant South that for some unexplainable reason still feels superior despite being on the wrong side of history on every national question since the Revolution.

And Jefferson and Washington? Radical LIBERALS.

What we need is to continue our revolution, and despite the votes of 51% of the electorate (mandate? 51% is a mandate? that's another topic) it doesn't make them RIGHT, just in the majority. The majority of Jews in zero AD would have voted to condemn Jesus - so should He have said "well, they are the majority" and given in on what He believed? Of course not. In 1933 Hitler was elected. Should Germans have simply acquisced to Nazism? Many did. Were they right? They were in the majority after all.

So I don't feel like "I" lost the election. I feel "America" did. Because Bush harms us and what we stand for, and because 51% believed Kerry would cause their kids to turn gay or would surrender to terrorists doesn't mean Kerry was wrong or Bush was right.

Bush wants to spread "democracy" just like Britain wanted to spread "civilization." And both Britain and America are wrong in how they are doing/did it, and that does NOT mean I am against democracy or civiliation. I am against uncalled for, unnecessary, risky WARS based on false pretenses.

How radical of me.

So I will continue to stand up for what I believe in. And in case anyone forgot, I repeat: "Mr. President, fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

Ala71 and others are "shocked" by such language, while still displaying such hatred as Swiftboat veteran lying assholes on their blogs. Hypocrisy abounds when people claim God dictates their politics.

"Got Mitt Uns."

Bigandmean said...

Genevaconventions,
An emotional cripple like you wouldn't be able to follow through on your threat to kick somebodies' ass unless it was a fellow blue stater.

Have you people have gone completely stark raving mad? For God's sakes, grow up!

this we'll defend said...

Interesting.

Bigandmean tells Genconv that:

1) Genconv is an "emotional cripple,"
2) Genconv could only kick the ass of a "fellow blue stater" (along the lines, I suppose, of the "any Southern man can whip 10 yankees" logic that led the South to destruction at the hands of those blue-stater yankees),
3) and suggests that those who are upset with the President's ignorant and harmful policies should simply "grow up" and accept that because 51% of the voters disagree, the policies must be correct.

He then, amazingly, tells everybody "For God's sake, grow up."

Not that it is unusual for a Bush voter to invoke God in all matters including those in which God has NOT taken sides (or even in cases when He surely has made His position clear and it is against the red-stater), but the hypocrisy of insulting somebody by calling them an emotional cripple and implying that they are wimps, and then telling THEM to grow up - amazing.

free0352 said...

First off as most of you know, I'm a Marine Reservist, and so I think I can safely say that if anybody in the service has a problem going to war, they can't refuse and take the other than honorable discharge. "All I wanted was the colledge money, I wus twiked...sniff sniff..." oh kiss my ass.

Geneva Conventions-

Dude...Virgina is in the S.O.U.T.H.

It is my money...mine! Taking it away without my concent is called T.H.E.F.T. Hence my hatred for liberals, as you are stealing from me. I'm not a rich guy, I'm not the top 2% or whatever! I don't even clear 30g's a year, and you liberals take about 40 cents of every dollar I earn! Criminals, my daughter could use that more than your deadbeats! The only president who eased this burden in my adult life was GWB, he got my vote! I don't care what you say Kerry "said" he would do, I didn't buy it and nither did the remaining 51%! All that man did was raise taxes!

God, guns, and gays is not why Bush got his mandate and you know it Democrats. Where were all these morals when Clinton won two terms? Bush got 51% (More than Clinton may I add.) because people didn't blame him for the recession, thought he was tougher on terrorism than Kerry, and generally thought Kerry was a super liberal Mass, socialist who wanted to confiscate the wages of the productive and give them to the unproductive.

Basically 51% of Americans don't think like you, now suck that up just like we did from 92-2000. Have fun not having the house, senate, executive, or the supream court. I hate to gloat, but how can't I not point out the glaringly obvious point, that your place in this country isn't what you thought it was, now was it?

I suggest some of you more left folks move to Canada, I think you will be much happier in a nation that shares your side of things. If it's too cold, might I suggest the south of France..."Learning a new language can be fun!"

bye now.

Bigandmean said...

TWD,
My comments were made only after repeated insults were flung at anybody and anything not a Kerry supporter and culminating in threats to "kick ass". My critisisms are directed towards persons for their behavior and not because of their beliefs...a significant differerence in what I see here. I believe that an admonition to either grow up or get over it is entirely reasonable.

Aside from some of the disparaging remarks made about the president and his supporters, as a former serviceman, your remarks about the Commander In Chief were all the more disgusting and vile. You should know better and should be ashamed of yourself. I dealt with the presidency of President Clinton and would have defended and protected him if necessary because he was my president but certainly was not my choice. This was true even though I did not respect him as a man and even though he never received as much as 50% of the votes cast in either of his elections.

I have many friends who were Kerry supporters who were equally as disappointed as I was in 1992 and 96 and as you are now. Their behavior since the election has been a mix of frustration and disappointment but they accept the result with a sense of cordiality and common purpose that I don't see here. They are generally older than you and most of the people who post here and that may explain the difference in the reaction to the election results. I can't attribute some of the remarks I see here to anything but immaturity, either emotional or otherwise.

Bigandmean said...

TWD,
One more thing. Go back and read GC's post and tell me honestly what you think of it. Does it appear to you to be the least bit immature? Does it contribute to a reasoned discussion of politics and politcal discourse? Does it demonstrate the manner of communication that should be used by mature, thoughtful adults when exchanging ideas about important world matters? Is there anything belligerant or confrontational about it and if so, is that style one that should be used by mature adults?

this we'll defend said...

Bigandmean: I disagree with you on politics. I also respect your discourse and enjoy it when you add your thoughts to the discussion.

CG: you and I probably agree politically, but I must say that Bigandmean makes some good points about your post. Please keep contributing, but with respect for those who disagree with you as well as those who agree.

Thanks to all for a wonderful and lively conversation.